It traces to Clintons legendary wonkishness. Youre only there because he allowed you to be, and you owe him a debt of gratitude for that because without him no service, and without service your life is less. So I knew we had a problem. But I really could never figure that out. I mean, the reasons why Japan has had such difficulty in terms of its domestic economy are not reasons that an agreement with the United States is going to importantly affect, no more than our signing a trade agreement with Japan that committed us to try to do more at home to pump up our economy would be a big element in whether we did or didnt ultimately see economic growth here. The phone rang and I was told by the Under Secretary for Enforcement that there had been a raid by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms on a complex in Waco, Texas, which had gone terribly wrong. Youre working on prospective personnel issues? Now we became aware pretty early that there were some real problems with this proposal. So there was not any anxiety or uncertainty within the core group of people involved in economic policy making about how this might fit in or. It wasnt between the political people and the policy people, it was among the policy people and involving some of the political people. The President was all over this. He loved it. It was a very unusual evening, because there was a sense, as I say, we were interring the candidate. Did that debate begin as early as August? Less and less now that shes her own public figure, but thats her nature. But he was at least alive. I mean, I just thought he was such a hero. Once again, were grateful for your time. Ill give you an answer but Ill preface it by saying Im not sure my memory is quite right here. They were using very powerful weaponsI think .20 caliber weapons. He doesnt even know about the advent of optical scanners in grocery stores, and that was the theme, that was THE central theme as codified, so to speak, in [James] Carvilles famous comment, its the economy, stupid. Do you have any recollections of seeing anything different in him as a candidate at that point for that position? Clintons very first initiative was his stimulus program. I dont think anybody during the campaign expected that Clinton would turn out to be the deficit hawk that he did. What really happened was that the stimulus was entirely spending-side stimulus. I should have realized I was stepping into a potential mine field but I didnt, although I do have to say that I called my lawyer and asked him if there was any reason I shouldnt take this and he said, Yes, there are about 200 reasons. Mickey Kantor was in charge of the famous Little Rock Economic Summit. I was just going to make an observation about history, historians and non-historians who study Presidents past and present. The Clinton process was much more flexible, and I think better, than the Carter process, but that reflected the personalities of the two men. and I had no previous knowledge of it at all. And I also think that theres a certain sense of loyalty among the people that are currently serving in this administration, which is more in keeping with tradition, than the Clinton folks, or many of them I should say, brought to it. Erskine Bowles had to testify and so forth. If were talking about 1991, I think his ideas were in formation. I should double-check that. Can you tell us a little bit about the second role? Is this time for patriotism? Of course he has those who get invited to his ranch and those who dont. Why? I remember that day. It begins I think with the economic and fiscal circumstances that the administration faced, and two in particular. I do hope as we proceed that you will take the time to give us your continuing perceptions of Bentsen because unfortunately he is somebody we had approached about doing an interview and. We began to have fundraisers toward the end of 91. Who was the New York group that helped him with fundraising and maybe also with policy? I should be very careful here. How difficult was it to do what you were doing in an environment where Mario Cuomo was sort of floating around trying to figure out. It really wasnt that way. Of course, the fact of a summit means you have to have some agreement, and we had an agreement. Although the President really thought he could convince more Democrats of the merits of NAFTA than he ultimately did. You could have something like the Paris agreement in 1985 when there was coordinated strengthening of the European and Japanese currencies and weakening of the dollar. Then, while the agreement called for there to be no further duties or tariffs or anything on everything, a whole variety of items were carved out in order to get certain votes. Yes, here in New York. It wasnt a process where people were maneuvering furiously to see who could get the last word in to the President or something. So maybe among the so-called populists there was a lot of anxiety as they saw this axis, the Bentsen-Rubin axis, develop and recognizing that both were relatively conservative. I want to ask one more question about the election because Ross Perots name hasnt come up and been explored. Were you privy to the conversations that he had? Do you remember your impressions of Clinton as an undergraduate? WebRoger Ebert March 07, 1978. It wasnt evident to me the day after New Hampshire that he had recovered from it. Yes, to some degree. I think its a combination of several things. Can you walk us through that? But the key revelation was the most stimulative thing we could do for this economy is to induce a monetary response. I can tell you without any fear of contradiction that anyone who makes either of those mistakes, and I can think of others, will ultimately rue the day that he made them. But apropos of my comments earlier that classic, unreconstructed liberalism had never been my cup of tea, I never identified with Mario Cuomo. A few questions about that. I think it was serious as a political thing, meaning you had three candidates instead of two and of course, the dynamic was different. So it could be revived again tomorrow. So its a free vote, ideologically and politically. You didnt have to spend much time around them to see this. The first vote on one of Clintons issues was a defeat, which presaged a lot of the weakness that then afflicted him during 1993. So I wasnt sure what was going to happen, but there was no one in the field that was suddenly squashing everyone else including Clinton. Its worth asking. It was a successful fundraiser. I remembered him of course, but I dont think he knew me. No, I went back the next day. I want to be sure that there is a clear picture of that because he cant offer it himself. I do recall some rushed discussions at the very end about what we do now and how we flesh out his policies, and I can recall talking to George Stephanopoulos the morning the convention ended about certain steps we were going to take now in terms of getting better organized on policy development and issues. I think it was over two days. I dont know why we were the earliest on the list. Maybe there was, I wasnt privy to that or exposed to that. The Japanese economy was relatively weak at that time although it was in perhaps the first third of its now 12-year, or 14-year slump after the Nikkei peaked at 39,000. They talked all the time. There are some people who wouldsome of the George H. W. Bush people date the partisanship from the budget deal. You referred earlier to the cycles of political partisanship, policy issues. I worked in the White House another three or four months, worked on, for example, the bailout of Washington, D.C., and then the passage of the new control board type legislation and then my kids got out of school in June. Bentsen only talked to about five or six Senators. He saw the opportunity, he seized it, went against the grain and, lets face it, presided over a period of unprecedented prosperity and balanced the budget for the first time in approximately 50 years. But wasnt the Clinton economic plan somewhat right-of-center too? I cant remember allTom Brokaw was there, Davis Weinstock, Dick Beatty, Bob Rubin, George Katz, and/or Bernie Nussbaum were there. Thats true, yes. Did you know him, you said you hadnt known him before then? I was completelyclean bill of health from the independent counsel. Most of us cant name the last President who did balance the budget. I was given an office over in the Treasury. I was just in awe of people like that. In part, there was a sectoral approach. Of course it was a very small kind of backwater type of situation, not a big one. Please. We met for six or seven hours in the Governors mansion there. There was no committee per se but he had a few people who were involved at that point and doing something like looking at Putting People First and editing it, and then just these periodic conversations we would have on the fly. You should have asked me about the vote, unless youve already talked to enough people about it. I was often at the National Economic Council meetings that deliberated on those. So he didnt have the luxury of saying, Lets do it a year from now, as you often do with other things. I remember the very stirring tableau as you may remember, the Clintons and the Gores came out onto this beautifully lit portico and there were, it seemed, thousands of people on the street in front of them. So actually I didnt have any concerns. The only reason I think it worked was Bob Rubin, who had the skill and the temperament to make it work. I would say it was something like this. Is this a case where the political people were encouraging him to hold his ground? Help us understand why he would elect to move NAFTA at this point? The answer to that is yes. Then in the latter part of 93 I think, Whitewater began to surface, I think it was late 93. Can you tell us about that? Actually, each White House that I was familiar with had its own version of what we called the National Economic Council, and if you look back for example, during the Nixon and Ford administrations, they had something quite similar. It got more organized as 92 unfolded. And I dont have any different set of reactions than anyone else watching the thing at the time. By the way, in any matter where the statute of limitations was about to expire, there was nothing specific about the Madison matter that was any different. So the swing votes were the object of our attention. Yes, but typically you wouldnt resort to that with relative stability in the exchange markets, and we did have relative stability. It was very effective because it was a group of roughly 20-25 people, working literally 19-20 hours a day with only one mission, and that mission was to get this bill passed. Well, if you were to ask me for a moment when looking back on it, one could perhaps see that we were moving into a new period of partisanship, I would have chosen instead the [Robert] Bork battle, which I think changed quite dramatically the whole process on Supreme Court nominations and the grounds on which they were debated. There werent many people in the administration who fully understood it. No, I dont remember that effort at all, so it must have been pretty quiet. But that was really after the economic program passed. Did you stay in Little Rock for a while afterward? We had a chronic problem with Japan because they had so many Prime Ministers. Bob Dole. Right, but if you take too much pain up front. He told me what would happen to the Clinton stimulus bill the day it was put forward. Some of the cookies we use are essential for parts of the website to operate and cannot be switched off in our systems. We were both quite active in student government. And we had the same in the Carter administration, but it had been more junior. Scientist, architect, botanist, Copyright 2023. And the difficulty became quickly evident once the program was laid out. In a curious way hed compromised his own position. Do you have the perception that there were some other instances where maybe this wasnt done? Whatever was going on on the deck of the Titanic was comparable, but it was absolutely frantic and incredibly dramatic and tense. Fortunately Secretary Bentsen said, No, not fine. Only to a degree. Well of course, McLarty was replaced by Leon Panetta roughly a year after the administration began. Youre in such a good position to give us a comparative portrait of transitions internally. But I interpreted that to mean, Maybe you should, because I felt that if he thought I shouldnt, hed say so. But its interesting to put it into perspective. Mexico was looking for the freedom for its trucks to cross the border and continue to deliver in the United States. Hed be speaking someplace and Id be playing some role at the same conference at one of the usual conference locations, and we would briefly renew the acquaintance, but I did not stay, in any organized way, in touch with him. Was this your first opportunity? We didnt spend a tremendous amount of time talking about, If we do this, Greenspan will do that. One, every morning of course, there was the senior staff meeting at the White House. And also, the opportunity to finally address what the real economic situation and fiscal situation was. Perhaps history will give Clinton credit for having been the man who made welfare reform happen. Not giving it a lot of thought, frankly, I said, Sure. Hed been shot eight times. I was the senior Treasury person day-in, day-out on the major healthcare task force that Mrs. Clinton herself chaired. Could you see at that point a set of priorities emerging with the candidate? I referred to the Bert Lance affair when I was serving the Clinton administration, and in that case the controller of the currency, who is an independent regulator, was charged with looking into it and delivered a report that ultimately proved to be Bert Lances downfall. As a Democratic President however, he could have vetoed the bill and it would have been sustained by Congress. I direct the Presidential Oral History Program at the Miller Center. Some of them I think were insincere, but many of them were sincere. You look at the turnover that she hador in her case did not haveon her staff, and the turnover that he had. It certainly wasnt optimal. and the period of time during whichtheres a window during which it had to be submitted for a vote. Evercore uses cookies to give you the best experience on our website. Secretary Bentsen was too important and had other things to do than to go down to Waco, Texas, and try to figure out what was going on there. He was a classic, in my book, excellent chief executive. Sure. Its fashionable for conservatives to say that the recovery had already begun on George H. W. Bushs watch and that if we just stood aside, the same results would have occurred, but those werent the economic forecasts we were looking at at the time, nor do I believe that school of thought to be accurate, but thats another matter. The President was in a tough spot because he was hearing from a lot of people that the effort was too ambitious, but on the other hand, Mrs. Clinton was in charge of it. Chicago, of course, always has been, and they attracted very different students. They didnt want tickets to the Kennedy Center, they wantedI want this for my tomato farmers, or I want this for my citrus growers. That approach hasnt been able to capture a majority of the American public for 40 years and I dont think its going to capture the majority of the American public for another 40 years. Well, it was supposed to become the law of North America on January 1st, wasnt it? I think we had a sandwich or something and I took off and went back to the airport. The politics of Oklahoma. So that, despite the extraordinary achievement it really was, I think may be seen by history as a small achievement. Were you consulting with the President occasionally after you left Washington and came back to New York? I was an Assistant Secretary, I had a few meetings with President Carter but not that many, so I wasnt familiar, But it was not the way you would organize, and one wonders, Mack McLarty was the Chief of Staff at the time and came out of a business. There were certain others, I cant recall now, but a group of six or eight or nine, and we literally sat around with pieces of paper and drafts and hammered it out. Will policy differences be the reason that candidate X or candidate Y emerges with the nomination? You can see it in real life at 3901 S. Michigan Avenue, about 20 minutes from the Once he decided he was for it, he really got into it. I disagree that hes under-appreciated. Ickes arrived for different reasons; that wasnt to try to lend organization to the process. No. The presumption of course at the beginning was that I knew what the substance of the investigation was, or what the actual issues were from an investigatory legal point of view, and that I had conveyed that to the White House, which was impossible by its turn, absolutely impossible, but in politics thats not often the important thing. Every time they had a new Prime Minister, we had a new set of characters. Whenever the times got tough or after they left or whatever it was, I think a lot of people who left the Clinton administration lowered themselves by their own behavior in terms of lesser loyalty than they should have had. Very, very intensive, one of the most intensive things Ive ever been involved in. The office on Vermont Avenue probably opened between two and three weeks thereafter, lets say, picking a time, the 25th of November, just guessing, 20th to 25th. This goes back to that question about the interim between the pain and the payoff. Right now, again, were very far away from even the primaries still, let alone the general election, but right now the most active topic of discussion by the candidates by far is healthcare. Right off the bat in the administration, a group of us were deputized to try to lay the groundwork for a productive summit. You havent told us about your own appointment. How difficult was it to raise money in the environment, Cuomo aside, just for somebody who had been a Governor of Arkansas in a campaign season when theres. I suppose you could have strengthening of the yen, coordinated G7 action to do that. And Bentsen did make the call. There was no surprise. Just be sure it doesnt collapse during the interim. But a very useful one. We know youre extremely busy. He seemed very tired, I remember that. I dont mean that facetiously. I just never took him seriously as a candidate. Is that a fair assessment? The idea of making changes or improvements in the IRS is a pretty tough idea, but you find yourself doing things like that. That was all part of the same ultimate mix. So I would get, from Mike Levy, typically, what my assignments were. But what actually turned out to happen was that each Cabinet officer, or at least many of them, came up with a list of favorite initiatives they wanted. Then, in 1995, he formed Evercore. You couldnt say to yourself, Well in the end hell be fine. I consider that another important legacy, since not that many Presidents of the 20th century have it. What was different about it was that it worked, because most of them had been somewhat dysfunctional. So an hour before the vote is when we heard that we probably had his vote. We had a couple of others. It was a very simple letter that was done up for me and I sent it to everybody saying, Just so you know, the RTC has only these procedural options in matters like this, and we will be reaching a decision on which of them to do before the statute of limitations expires. Dont ever talk down your currency; dont ever quarrel with the Federal Reserve Board. Some of thats a function of, for lack of a better word, the culture within the group of people who worked in this administration, so that there is no penalty paid, in effect, among your former colleagues for being outspoken or saying something in the press critical to the President. Our labor leadership did not want that, especially of course, the Teamsters. I believe, as I say, it was either the day of or the day after Gennifer Flowers had given her press conference. But in any event, Im sure it wasnt as good as it should have been. So I knew a little bit about what was worth doing and what wasnt. Theyre going to ask you about it, say nothing. No, I had very little contact with Mr. Clinton for roughly 20 years after leaving. In the early period, there was a lot of discussion of broad strategy, how to create support for deficit reduction as a whole, how to talk about the program, what type of interest groups we needed to particularly work with and work on. The country needs it, the Democratic Party needs it, I need it. Yes, Putting People First was reissued, I believe it was June. Well, when we actually re-did Putting People First, we went to Little Rock and worked on it for a few days. No, it never got to a vote. The social side of it had almost nothing to do with it. I think it was obvious to Clinton that there were several serious people there in New York whose support he wanted to get who felt strongly about what I would call a centrist economic policy, perhaps right of center economic policy. Each day hed give a speech and mark off a day, counting down the days to the expiration of the statute of limitations and saying these people at the RTC damn well better be sure that justice is served, the Clintons arent off the hook. He could have just been rhetorically difficult about it and kind of accepted the fact that were steady as she goes on the Cold War, and he didnt. Tweet. So I guess wed like to hear the story about your involvement in both cases, focusing on your relationships with members of Congress, how the division of labor was, your relationships with the. I think well probably want to pick up there and find out about that experience. If I search my memory or some dusty file somewhere, I could probably come up with more names, but it was not a huge group. I took an hour plus to do this. Ive known many members. But also the role of the media had been changing a lot and that role I think manifested itself very vividly in the Clinton years. There were some cases where we did, but we didnt broadly know where each member of Congress really stood on this. We were negotiating a national agreement with the Japanese. Some time around 1989 or so, Hillary Clinton went on the board. But then of course, I went home, my family was away, you walk home, you walk into your house, and its time to watch ESPN [Entertainment and Sports Programming Network] or whatever you do. I worked in the White House. But before then, somebody was charged with thinking about transitional issues, actually before the November election, and my question to you is whether, in your work in Treasury transition, you had relied on any work that had been done before? In 1991 it was not organized. Theres a time lag between taking painful steps to do something with the deficit and getting some response in the. A lot of people didnt realize and I didnt entirely realize the regulatory responsibilities of the RTC at the time. Theres one thing about Clinton that I think is beyond debate, that hes a fabulous politician. There was a stimulus package that dwindled, right? What did you find on the ground when you got there, if I could? Everyone understood there was a lag factor. How did the decision-making go about to decide on these different components of the package? That was a wonderful comment. And it was just fuel on the already roaring fire of Whitewater. Well, I dont think theyd like it. These cookies do not store any information that directly identifies you. But, no, they couldnt have been more cooperative. If Im not mistaken, we were looking at a $350 billion deficit, up from about $260 or something that we had been generally using during the campaign. For example, a year later, the fall following my graduation, I attended the University of Chicago, which was perhaps more than any other university, except the University of Wisconsin, the center of SDS [Students for a Democratic Society] activity. And the field against which Clinton ultimately competed was not a strong field. You can do all kinds of approaches to anything. Mr. Altman began his investment banking career at There was also a very memorable event that was held in the East Room of the White House, and recall that within a week or two of this event, Clintons own position on NAFTA was still up in the air. Then later in the process I was asked if I would go do a war room for healthcare of the type we did for the budget. You know, she made comments like I could have stayed home and baked cookies but I decided to be a real person, which served to severely antagonize a lot of traditionalists. Sure, I did. Theyd been working on it for two or three weeks or whatever one does, but, as they usually do, the day before the profile runs, they want to come in and interview him so they can have a current aspect to it. My point is that if one was a Republican in 93, one could say, Okay, Im going to vote against this so Im not on record of favoring any kind of tax increase, and that protects me politically and if that works out, I dont lose anything, so Im politically immunized. Then we ended up for some strange set of reasons having a giant turnout and he wowed them. Do you recall in your conversations with Senator Bentsen, were there missed opportunities for developing a more bipartisan atmosphere in Washington at this time, or was it pretty much just a foregone conclusion that because the Republicans were now completely in the minority that they were going to obstruct from the outset? Its improved a lot since then, now become of course one of the leading universities in the country, but it was not at that time, in fairness. We had a couple hundred people there. But in any event, Madison Guaranty had failed. So that resulted in my having, I suppose, a jack-of-all-trades job. I might have if I had not known Bob Rubin, but I knew him better than anybody else in the administration knew him and I had great confidence in him and knew that he and I would relate well. It struck outsiders as the administration never passed up an opportunity to say, This is the preserve of the Federal Reserve. There was a concern that wed spill all the rest of our blood on NAFTA and have nothing left. At this point youre working on policy questions primarily? But there was the issue of the Clintons association with it and the fact that Madison Guaranty had made loans to the actual Whitewater Development Company, and the question of whether those loans had been made under pressure from the Clintons and in fact whether [James] McDougal, who ran it, had defrauded the depositors in cahoots with the Clintons. Bob Rubin. How do you think Clinton ultimately is going to be read by historians, this Presidency? I wouldnt necessarily accept that. He was not, no. Im sure there are numerous aspects of that that the administration given a chance would like to do over, to prepare better, and it was a team that didnt have a lot of legislative experience, although, in the case of Panetta and Bentsen, it had a couple of very strong elements. So there wasnt all that much time, maybe ten days, twelve days, between opening the office, showing up down there and then having the Treasury Secretary and the rest of the members of the economic team chosen. We recommend you to check the complete So, in August whatever it was the final vote was cast and the economic bill became lawwell, with the Presidents signature it became lawwe didnt really know what we were going to do on NAFTA. We might have a thousand independent counsels operating under the freedom of the press, investigations. Which has become a part of the conventional wisdom about this period now, perhaps based on Woodwards analysis. I was not one who thought the whole idea of putting the First Lady in charge of this was somehow unsound and I always had good relations with Mrs. Clinton, so we communicated pretty well. My assumption is that you must have been doing that from two perches, your first perch being in the Treasury Department and then eventually the war room was opened up, and then you at some point were moved into the war room. NAFTA has been successful. He was clearly learning as he went. But, in any event, everything was going fine at the RTC until, unfortunately, the matter of Madison Guaranty came up. I think each person makes his or her own decision. He was not confronted with a grave crisis, but I think history will treat him very well, because essentially. Ickes arrived for different reasons ; that wasnt to try to lend organization to the.... You should, because I felt that if he thought I shouldnt, hed say so days... 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